Thinky Thoughts

[thornyrose42]

 So Torchwood and Torchwood reactions inspired more thoughts.

 

Torchwood Fandom has exploded. As far as I can tell for my little safe bomb proof corner over here the fandom seems to be split mainly between the people who were in it for Jack and Ianto, canonical gay, stopwatches and al,l and those who well, weren't. Actually it seems that the less emotionally invested in Torchwood and the fandom you were the more you enjoyed the series. I was lucky as I hadn't even watched most of the previous two seasons and had been living vicariously through people's reaction posts thus I was quite happy to watch five hours of gripping TV drama and not worry about the fact that this does seem to be Torchwood's swan-song.

 

I've seen some comments to the effect that they don't understand a) the character death and b) why RTD is basically killing of Torchwood just when it is doing so well and after only three seasons. I saw one comment that basically said that she would understand CoE being placed four seasons down the line but couldn't work out why RTD would use this story now.

 

Well for me a lot of this can be explained by the difference between American and British telly. 

 

Fawlty Towers, officially the best British TV program ever according to the British Film Institute who created a list of the 100 Greatest British Television Programs in 2000, ran for a total of two seasons each containing six episodes. Fawlty Towers is often held up as the example which all other series should follow, it is cited when a series does pull to a close while still on top form and when the quality of a series begins to peter out critics start making snide remarks about how they should have "got out while the going was good". We also have a tendency to be snippy about long running American TV shows possibly due to jealousy :) the Radio Times’s reviews of season five of House have mentioned the words “tired formula” about ten times so far. Series as a whole just don't have as many episodes or last for as long in Britain as they do in America. (Even the American series that get canceled before their time often have more episodes than a successful British TV series.) This is obviously due to different levels of funding, management etc etc and it doesn't mean that we aren't disappointed when a favourite TV series stops (witness my mum upon hearing that both Robin Hood and Primeval had been canceled after their third seasons) but it does mean that we are a lot more used to it and perhaps more willing to accept it.

 

The same goes for character death. Our shows just have more of it. British actors have shorter contracts and the shows are written and shot in their entirety before the show airs. Thus you just don’t get the comfort of knowing that the only place a main character can die is in the finale and with a suitably dramatic death scene. Spooks is a prime and extreme example of this. The show has run for an unusually long time for a British production partly because the cast changes all the time. In fact there is only one original cast member left the rest having left or been killed in a variety of unpleasant ways. Although as astrogirl2  pointed out to me the American shows are getting more ruthless Lost and SCC being the obvious examples.

 

There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods of producing TV series (both being preferable to the reality TV that we get all too much of now) but they are ultimately different methods of production with a different set of values behind them. I guess that RTD and the Torchwood  gang would just prefer in ten years time to look back on five hours of quality television rather than five seasons of ok television.  

 

Comments

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Its money, UK tv has no money at the moment. BBC are under pressure to give some of the licence fee to ITV because ITV are on the verge of going bust. So expensive drama on the BBC is under pressure. I suspect Torchwood is going so that Who can continue.

Though personally I think the BBC should hack eastenders back to 1 or 2 episodes a week, because thats a vast money sink.

But yes, you're right. The fans who were in Torchwood for the boyslash are desperately upset and hating RTD at the moment, while everybody else loved CoE.

[thornyrose42.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the rumour that I was upset about was that SJA would be finishing as well after a third season.

Cut Eastenders back? But the the country really would riot! :)

I read an interesting comment recently from a Janto fan that said that one of the reasons that she was so upset was that fandom as a whole had really created their own fandom!Ianto and she was in morning for that Ianto more than canon Ianto.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Yeah, SJA is particularly expensive for a kids show. I think they made a huge mistake scheduling that as part of CITV. It should have been an early saturday evening show.

God, and wouldn't they just. I don't think anything has ever been allowed to mess with the holy Eastenders.

And that might explain it. It might also explain why so many smart people were able to understand the first 2 seasons of Torchwood, if they were more seeing the show they wanted to see and had created from what was there. Because really, I thought those first 2 seasons of Torchwood were awful.

[thornyrose42.livejournal.com]

Yeah the early Sat evening slot would have been good, maybe they wanted it to step away from Doctor Who a bit, God knows the BBC scheduling is a mystery to me.

I just didn't watch the first two seasons really, apart from the first couple and the ones with Martha. But isn't thtat often the case, the show is awful so fandom feels that it has free rein an quite frankly they couldn't make it much worse.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

I'm convinced SJAs viewing figures would have doubled if they'd shown it at the weekend. It was almost as if they were afraid of it being a big success.

Always thought it very amusing that SJA, the 'kids' spin-off, was always infinitely more mature than Torchwood.

And yeah, I always felt like I was watching a different show with Torchwood than the one the fans were watching. But then, I gave up on S1 half way through, watched the first couple of S2 and figured it hadn't improved any.

[softly-me.livejournal.com]

Speaking on behalf of the crazy TW fandom:

The RTD and his merry band of writers created fascinating characters and then gave them nothing interesting to do! Watching the episodes themselves became a means to an end. We needed to watch in order to see the characters but we were bored to tears over the plot.

And since the writers failed so very miserably where the first two seasons are concerned, it was our duty to take over for them.

Fandom!Ianto being a prime example. Carefully developed by such genius writers as sam_storyteller, they took all the canon characterizations of Ianto and gave him depth and humor and pain and all the things that make him beloved to me and so many others.

[thornyrose42.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, Sam is a genius. Although I discovered him through his Sam Vimes stories and was then very disappointed to find that he didn't write them any more. :(

/And since the writers failed so very miserably where the first two seasons are concerned, it was our duty to take over for them./

Oh completely and I must say that from what I've seen you lot did a fantastic job. Fandom!Ianto and Jack were just superior to their on screen counter parts especially since they didn't have to worry about the acting skills, or lack there of of, JB and Whatshisface.

...

I'm going to get shot aren't I.

[softly-me.livejournal.com]

Your just digging the whole deeper and deeper =)

[thornyrose42.livejournal.com]

I must be in Australia by now.

:)

In my defense,

[softly-me.livejournal.com]

Oooh, good discussion. Television is absolutely my favorite topic ever.

I'm not objecting to CoE or the fact that Torchwood has ended. The show has always been mediocre at best. But the fandom is one of the most lively I've ever been in (and that's saying something). There has always been a lot of potential with TW characters, potential that the TW writers painfully ignore. I am unconcerned because silly things like canon deaths will never get in the way of an energetic fandom. But, I digress.

Most American television is crap, but one must realize just how much American television there is what with having "the most highly developed mass media in the world", according to BBC World News. And a lot of our shows, do go on far longer than necessary with no sign of stopping. (You mentioned House, but also Desperate Housewives, who just got signed for four more seasons, and Grey's Anatomy, where not one character is even remotely likable anymore).

(I must defend House quickly: Of course the House standard formula has gotten old. It's a procedural show, not unlike CSI and Law & Order. We are all generally unfair to House because we treat it like a fandom when it really shouldn't be. Having interesting characters and a totally slashable pairing has made House skyrocket into the world of fandom and we forget that procedurals aren't supposed to change the formula and have season-wide arcs. They are supposed to be interesting on an episode-by-episode basis. You are supposed to understand what is happening in any episode even if you haven't seen any others before. Procedurals are an important genre, especially for those who don't have time to make television their life (like we do!))

That being said, one can hardly generalize that all American television shows go on forever with no sign of stopping (especially not when Doctor Who is a British show - talk about going on forever). Ever since it's second season, LOST had a planned end of the show, deciding to stop after season six. Battlestar Galactica, similarly, planned out the story and decided how many seasons they needed to tell it. Critically acclaimed as currently the best show on tv, Mad Men has a set ending. I could add other shows to the list, but the point remains that not all US shows wait for their ratings to drop abysmally low before stopping. We just generally prefer to know that the end is coming. I think a lot of us americans are upset about TW because we are used to knowing far ahead of time that our show is ending - that gives us time to emotionally prepare.

I adored CoE. The fandom needs to calm down because death cannot stop true love (especially where Jack is concerned.) But, it's a little unfair for you to say that Torchwood is ending for idealic cause of 'quality television'. They stopped because they didn't have the funds to continue and they, thankfully, went out on a high note.

I'm sure if British television had endless funds like Hollywood there would be many more mediocre shows that run forever. (After all, I adore in telling everyone that it is Britain's fault American Idol exists. We stole the idea from them and then made it bigger and more irritating.) I am, however, very glad that you don't have that much money. Save for the few exceptions, nothing kills quality tv faster than endless funds (just look at the Harry Potter movies).

(Dear lord, I went on for a while. Sorry about that. Thanks for all the good food for thought.)

Alsoalsoalso,

[softly-me.livejournal.com]

And, dear, it so nice to see you posting again. You have been silent for far to long. Please stick around for a while, especially if you're going to be giving me television questions to mull.

Are you excited for the Half-Blood Prince?

Re: Alsoalsoalso,

[thornyrose42.livejournal.com]

Kind of. I'm sort of hoping that I'm going to be able to go and see the movie as a movie rather than an extension of the book. I actually saw the trailer and for a second couldn't remember whether or not the Burrow had caught fire in the book. Which bodes well. But of course I will probably still spend the movie going, "That didn't happen in the book, neither did that... WHY DOESN"T THAT WEREWOLF HAVE FUR???!!!!!"

And then all will be as it was.

Re: In my defense,

[thornyrose42.livejournal.com]

Yeah I must say I looked at this comment and went, ok reply to that later, when I have about an hour spare, so of course here I am answering at quarter past eleven.

/I must defend House quickly./

Oh go right ahead. Personally I love House. I love the idea that Hugh Laurie, he of Prince George and Bertie Wooster, has become an All American sex symbol renowned for his intelligence and wit. A long long long way away from "Honestly Blackadder, I'm sick of you treating me like I'm some sort of thickie. Well it's not me that's thick, it's you Mr. thickie Black thickie Adder thickie." being the best insult he could come up with.

/We just generally prefer to know that the end is coming. I think a lot of us americans are upset about TW because we are used to knowing far ahead of time that our show is ending - that gives us time to emotionally prepare./

Which is completely understandable. it is a big wrench when a show that you love ends evn when you do expect it. But I guess I was more trying to examine why the different TV cultures might provoke different reactions from the different audiences. Over here we don't really expect to be told in advance where as you guys do, eg different reactions.

/That being said, one can hardly generalize that all American television shows go on forever with no sign of stopping/

Oh yes, that was a complete generalisation but still you have to admit that in comparison to the UK shows even the ones that do have an ending planned in advance last a hell of a lot longer than the UK shows that have a planned ending. I mean compare Lost with Life on Mars. Lost might have a planned ending but they are still going to pass the hundred shows mark.

And you are quite right to bring up the point about money. I am sure that part of the reason that our culture of go out on a high note has sprung up is because lack of funds equals shorter seasons and we need a way to sell this to the punters. But I still say that because of this the British reaction to a show stopping at the point that Torchwood has is going to be different to the American one. Maybe it is one of those British cynicism things, we say "The program I liked has stopped, huh typical, still what do you expect, BBC, licence fee, mutter, still at least they went out on a high note. I bet they wouldn't have been able to live up to it the next season anyway so probably for the best." Where as across the pond people have higher expectations and expect them to be met so their response might be, as we have seen: "The program I liked has stopped. WTF!!!! That show was just getting good! Why are they cancelling it now? Look at the ratings it got! Are these BBC people out of their minds! When RTD comes to Comic Con I'm really going to let rip."

(No stereotypes were harmed in the making of this post)

Re: In my defense,

[softly-me.livejournal.com]

I actually wasn't planning on responding to this one and then I had more thoughts. Damn these never-ending thoughts about television that refuse to leave me alone! (Also, I'm not sure if any of this is actually responding to your comment. It may just end up sounding like random thoughts that were inspired by your comments, but then spun of in strange directions.)

Hugh Laurie has come such a long way from Blackaddar, especially in way of his insults, but I do often miss the old days - before all the biting snark and crippling angst. I shall admit, the only reason I've stuck with House so long is the slashy subtext.

/Over here we don't really expect to be told in advance where you guys do, eg different reaction/

That I shall except as being a general rule of thumb for television culture in the two places. Mind you, I don't think it is a ridiculous expectation to think that I will be told my favorite show is ending. Letting a loyal audience tune in excitedly to watch an episode of their beloved show and not know that you plan to end it all is just cruel. There is no other word for it.

/Compare Lost with Life on Mars./

Okay. Each show has a very specific story to tell. The story for Life on Mars was eight episodes long. (Yes, I do ignore second season because it was completely unnecessary.) The story for LOST is going to be 115 episodes long. (Yes, I actually went and counted).

There is, I think a significant difference in that UK shows generally take on shorter story-lines and fit a lot more into a few episodes. US shows aren't afraid to take on long stories and like to draw things out. BUT, I don't think that that difference, in itself, means any difference in quality. There is nothing wrong with long-running shows like LOST and Battlestar so long as they can keep the standards of good tv.

Aaand, I can't help but mention that there is no US show that has lasted a whopping 757 episodes the way a certain UK show has *cough*DoctorWho*cough*.

/re: British v. American reactions/

Americans are very used to shows ending. On our revolving door of many networks, there are dozens of new shows that start every few months. Many of them last only six episodes before they are unceremoniously pulled from the air. 'Drive' and 'Wonderfalls' only made it four episodes. However, in these cases, we can blame poor ratings ("Stupid average television viewers who don't see good television when it's right in front of them!") or we can blame heartless studio execs ("DAMN YOU, FOX!").

But, it's so very different when the people making the decision to end the show are the writers/directors/creators. It feels like betrayal. And I don't even think I'm really talking about Torchwood anymore because TW needed to end eventually and I have no objection to the way it ended, (especially since Ianto isn't really dead, nanogenes and all).

My frustration is really more along the lines of "NOW you have good writing? You guys couldn't have been writing good episodes for the past two years?!? You give us two shitty seasons, make us love you and then yank it off the air? How come you couldn't have started out this way?!?"

Totally went off topic in that reply, but I did my best =)